R8 - Blue smoke at start-up

Discussion in 'Audi R8' started by eiskurve, May 8, 2009.

  1. eiskurve New Member

    My 2007 R8 blows blue smoke on start-up after sitting for a few days. It only has 3000 miles and doesn't seem to use oil. No smoke when running when warm or accelerating. Anybody else seen this on theirs?
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  3. Cockney Boy Member

    It could be a build up of carbon in the system thats cleared out when you start the car. However i would still contact the dealer you got it from and mention it to them. At least if you report it, and the car goes pop, you have a leg to stand on.

    The one thing i would also recommend is changing your fuel, Most people use that nasty "Tesco" stuff, you know what they say "Every little helps".
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    This is a "known feature" of the high revving FSI V8 used in both the R8 and the RS4.

    If you search the RS4 forums of just about any Audi board you will see lots of discussion on this issue.

    The RS4 forum at RS246.com :: The World's #1 Audi S and RS Enthusiast Website would be a good place to look.

    It's partly caused by the inadequate design of the cyclonic oil separator, partly due to over fuelling for the first 30 seconds after startup and partly by the natural combustion in an FSI/GDI engine producing particulates on WOT at high rpm.
  4. a8 tech Member

    RS4 blue smoke from cold start and lumpy fast idle can be addressed by running sw version 090 via svm update on request,in my experience Dave.R8 suffers also but this isn't a complaint in the sense of a warranty issue/defect as the rpm is increased initially then its to be expected to allow the cats to reach operating temperature asap to reduce emissions.Its a compromise for these performance engines,mind you i started the V10 last week and that blew flames out the back and made the parts lads poo themselves from the roar.AWESOME
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    Tell that to the many RS4 owners running the 090 SW who STILL get smoke on startup! Yes, the 090 makes the initial (first 30 seconds) idle slower and reduces the initial over fuelling that leads to lumpy initial running, but the blue smoke on startup is NOT a fuelling issue - it's the inadequate design of the cyclonic oil separator which allows oil to buildup in the inlet manifold.
  5. a8 tech Member

    Interesting angry Dave,why then are S8 and RS6,Q7 4.2 not suffering this issue or 3.2 and 2.4 V engines.To be fair sw090 has other functions but you seem to have more info than me lol
    Personally i can see your point with the manifold/breather but this also caused oil consumption issues on b6 s4 and also 4f 2.4 suffered from poor oil breathing.Again this isn't seen as defect from a manufacturers point of view or one that seems to concern them for a solution.
    Regards A8
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    a8tech - you really should know the answer to that question yourself!

    The FSI V8 in the R8 and RS4 is a different engine (the high revving variant) with different ancillaries (that's the important part), from the FSI V8 in the Q7 and the S8.

    There is also lots of evidence from owners of the oil in the inlet manifold and coked up inlet valves issue affecting the 2.0FSI and 2.0TFSI engines, maybe the lower volumes of sales of the 3.2 and RS6 mean the problem has yet to be noticed, but I fully expect it to exist on them and on the "normal" 4.2 FSI V8 as well (but less extreme).

    That's no surprise - it appears (in the UK at least) that the majority of dealer technicians (with some notable exceptions at e.g. Camberley Audi) know less about the cars than well informed enthusiast owners.

    Owner pressure forced Audi to extend the warranty on the DRC components to 5 years/75,000 miles, a similar pressure group is appearing on the oil in the inlet manifold issue. I fully expect Audi to admit to the problem sometime soon to avoid damaging legal action...

    Please don't "follow the party line" it doesn't do you justice - there IS a problem with the oil separation system on the VAG FSI engines which is widely reported by owners (people who drive the cars EVERY day) worldwide, just because VAG don't yet admit it doesn't affect that fact.

    BTW I'm not "angry", just correcting your mis-information. I love my RS4 but I and many other RS4 owners don't want the beginning of every day to be greeted by blue/black smoke from the exhausts when we start our much-loved cars. I want the same start-up behaviour as my previous 2 B6 S4's - they just start with no smoke.
  6. eiskurve New Member

    Oops

    Gentlmen,,
    Thanks for all the info on the blue smoke emissions! I had no idea this is such a widespread issue with RS4 and R8 engines. I apologise for stirring up such an emotive subject!!! At least it seems my worry of valve guide or valve stem problems at such a low mileage was unfounded....
  7. Cockney Boy Member

    This was nothing LOL
  8. a8 tech Member

    I am very well informed and can see you have done some research into Audi V engines.R8 and Rs4 share the same manifold and breather system and yes there have been one or two internal leaks but not to the extent you make out and the blue smoke as long as its not excessive isn't a tell tale sign of internal oil leaking into the intake track or manifold cyclone breather failure.

    Drc suffers from poor front insert leaks and mostly poor recharge procedure carried out by techs’ will admit I have replaced a fair few and also for members of Rs forums, I have found by slightly reducing the pressure to front that repeat failure is less likely and its a must to have the accumulator re filler to even check the factory supplied units that don't always come filled as most techs think.
    Dave I work on nothing but R8's these days so I have hands on experience from launch to the highest mileage vehicle from my dealer with 40,000 miles covered and have yet to replace the breather system or manifold.
    This is based on 24 R8's that I solely work on and 2 full time track cars.
    I tow the official line because I see no failure's and the two engines I have replaced in Rs4's had no signs of internal leaks.

    The first engine replacement for smashed sump oil after the vehicle had been stolen and the second for a cam follower failure.
    I take on board what you have said but can't justify this as I receive very few complaints on this issue and I work for a large dealership with all complaints ran past myself.
    You know I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge Dave but I simply disagree with your diagnosis and how many vehicles you assume are affected.
    Best Regards A8
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    I don't "assume" how many vehicles are affected - I post and read on MANY Audi forums and the vast majority of RS4 owners have the blue smoke on startup issue.

    You can almost guarantee that the first post by a new owner will be "wow this car is great" and the second post will be "is blue smoke on startup normal?".

    Pictures have been posted of oil dripping out of intake manifolds when removed from an engine, so clearly the oil separator is NOT working as it should.

    Audi have a problem - they need to "wake up and smell the coffee", like they have done on the DRC issue.
  9. a8 tech Member

    Refer all incidents to local centers and allow them to forward the concern to Audi
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    I admire your faith in dealers.... it's not borne out by many (most?) owners.

    For example, you would be amazed how many dealers don't know how to correctly pressurise the DRC system.

    One tried to update the engine ECUs from 0080 to 0090 SW and failed, on contacting Audi UK they said the problem is with Audi gmbH and that they could not help...
  10. a8 tech Member

    Hopefully Dave you read my response before i removed it,i felt it contained to much info as to how and why and yes i share your views with general ability in dealers but then most trades suffer from this.For example curry's and pc world stand out as in my experience as a customer.Bottom line is the dealers are run in general by promoted sales people who look at the profit and diagnostics and repairs make no profit in the time saved efficiency of dealers.There are few that can and lots that cant in the dealers but also consider the growth of Audi in the last 10 years and the shear number of vehicles covered,only now for the first time are we seeing some continuity in models like a4/A5/Q5 sharing common networks where as before each model differed in network design like most bus lin bus etc/This should reduce the amount of information the dealers need to take in to resolve faults.Drc training was very brief if i recall and only glimpsed over on rs4 and rs6 launch so the importer has some part to play in the lack of knowledge,i receive factory information so i get to read more in depth as do all master techs who show willing.
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    Unfortunately I only saw the edited version, if there are things you want to share with me then please send me a PM.

    I share your views on Currys & PC World.

    I agree that increased commonality and platform sharing should help.

    You highlight the issue of poor and/or inadequate training, only solved by people who care and take the initiative themselves like you appear to do. I commend you for that. I 100% agree that the importers are just as guilty as the dealers.

    What disturbs me about all dealers of all makes is the almost universal movement away from employing people who understand the very complex mechanical and electronic systems on modern cars to employing people who can only connect a diagnostic system and change LRUs. Many vehicle problems do not show a DTC, or if they do the DTC is a symptom and not the root cause. Knowing the difference needs real knowledge of how the mechanical and electrical systems interact. This lack of knowledge leads to expensive replacement of LRUs whch don't solve the fault, and is one of the main reasons for the poor reputation of dealers. Another is the focus on meeting scheduled times for a job, a cousin of mine works in a GM dealership and is continually being told off by his bosses for not doing a "1 hour job" in 30 minutes!

    I'm an "old school" engineer who was taught that you have to learn the basics and build on that knowledge to understand the complex. Modern education does not share that view. For example, I had a graduate with a First Class BSc in Electronics who had no idea how transistors worked - because they didn't teach it at school, college or university. When I did my degree we MADE transistors ourselves. For me this lack of understanding is at the heart of the ills in our societies today.
  11. Igi Member

    Hmm, great. But back to basics.

    I think it is because these powerfull engines with big thermal stress need good lubrication in every condition, so there are bigger assembly clearance (between piston and cylinder), that is why cold engine eats oil and produce blue smoke, I think.

    Oil from intake manifold would be burnt, completely. This oil is from 4-th tact of the engine - exhaust.

    No one can help with it, it is mechanical, and in these software times, it can't be reflashed to new version...
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    You obviously haven't seen the photographs of oil dripping out of the inlet manifold when removed and the thick burnt on oil deposits on the inlet valves... some of the oil burns off, but not all of it.
  12. ACmil New Member

    Yes,my friend also have the same problem.
  13. sined240 New Member

    It goes to mention that all direct injection engines suffer from this oil in the air inlet valves and manifolds. While my 2.0T FSI engine doesn't produce an obvious blue smoke on startup, but I ask myself why my chrome exhaust tips look like caked on matte black powdercoating...
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    PetrolDave Super Moderator

    We've already mentioned that in this thread...

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